Damn it, you're right, of course. And that makes me extra glad I posted thoughts here first!
What I really want to see is people taking members of their own group to task -- especially in social situations. NOT necessarily in call-out style, because that can backfire, but not letting them get away with it unchallenged, either (I've engineered private moments to talk to people about things they said that I think needed checking, because I thought it would get them to think about it less defensively). All the small things that people let slide because they either don't notice or because non-confrontation is easier. But people need to shovel where the marginalized TELL them to shovel, to take the shovel metaphor up, not charge around like a bull in a china shop. Like... ideas for fixing the workplace for women should come from women: YES, absolutely. But the casual-conversational correction needs to be coming from the dudes way more often than it does, because people who are being assholes to women are more likely to respect the message when it comes from other men.
... a lot of it's judging the level of assholery, I suppose, which is always going to be a personal call. I know lots of thoughtful people, and if they say something thoughtlessly sexist and I call them on it, they'll step back and re-evaluate. I hope that I fall into the same category in re race issues -- I know I'll say something out of ignorance/carelessness, and I hope people will correct me on it. It's people who actually consciously put someone Other beneath them who won't tend to listen to that Other explaining.
this is a big fucking issue with centuries of good writing and decades of excellent writing and ...
I know, but as always, comparatively few people read the centuries of good writing. The specific audience on my facebook wall, fer ex, are a of combo well-meaning white liberals who want to love everyone and classic 'this isn't effecting me and I didn't enslave anyone personally so it isn't my problem' folks (mostly older relatives...). There ARE other groups, of course, but those are the groups I think need reaching.
As for non-white communities that need to work on their own anti-blackness, I've seen that in action, but I'm white, so I don't think it's my place or that I do any good stepping in there, except in the subtlest of ways. i.e., talking with Latina sister-out-law, I felt it reasonable to point out that the rate of black people murdered by cops IS actually ridiculous high and anomalous when she started getting anti BLM and black-vs-latin@ (I know, those groups can overlap, but that's how she was talking). "Hey, here's a factual problem" is about as far as I think it reasonable to push.
What I want to say but apparently can't figure out well is that someone who has already written Person B off is not likely to listen to any arguments Person B puts forth about why that's a bad idea, because they've already been written off. But clearly I need to think about it more.
Sorry this is rambly, but thank you for replying to it.
no subject
What I really want to see is people taking members of their own group to task -- especially in social situations. NOT necessarily in call-out style, because that can backfire, but not letting them get away with it unchallenged, either (I've engineered private moments to talk to people about things they said that I think needed checking, because I thought it would get them to think about it less defensively). All the small things that people let slide because they either don't notice or because non-confrontation is easier. But people need to shovel where the marginalized TELL them to shovel, to take the shovel metaphor up, not charge around like a bull in a china shop. Like... ideas for fixing the workplace for women should come from women: YES, absolutely. But the casual-conversational correction needs to be coming from the dudes way more often than it does, because people who are being assholes to women are more likely to respect the message when it comes from other men.
... a lot of it's judging the level of assholery, I suppose, which is always going to be a personal call. I know lots of thoughtful people, and if they say something thoughtlessly sexist and I call them on it, they'll step back and re-evaluate. I hope that I fall into the same category in re race issues -- I know I'll say something out of ignorance/carelessness, and I hope people will correct me on it. It's people who actually consciously put someone Other beneath them who won't tend to listen to that Other explaining.
this is a big fucking issue with centuries of good writing and decades of excellent writing and ...
I know, but as always, comparatively few people read the centuries of good writing. The specific audience on my facebook wall, fer ex, are a of combo well-meaning white liberals who want to love everyone and classic 'this isn't effecting me and I didn't enslave anyone personally so it isn't my problem' folks (mostly older relatives...). There ARE other groups, of course, but those are the groups I think need reaching.
As for non-white communities that need to work on their own anti-blackness, I've seen that in action, but I'm white, so I don't think it's my place or that I do any good stepping in there, except in the subtlest of ways. i.e., talking with Latina sister-out-law, I felt it reasonable to point out that the rate of black people murdered by cops IS actually ridiculous high and anomalous when she started getting anti BLM and black-vs-latin@ (I know, those groups can overlap, but that's how she was talking). "Hey, here's a factual problem" is about as far as I think it reasonable to push.
What I want to say but apparently can't figure out well is that someone who has already written Person B off is not likely to listen to any arguments Person B puts forth about why that's a bad idea, because they've already been written off. But clearly I need to think about it more.
Sorry this is rambly, but thank you for replying to it.