The return of the bride of bad sketch

[shadesofmauve]

Okay! After having a wide-variety of things pointed out to me, and spending an hour last night with my tired-but-mostly-biddable sweetheart, I've some different options for how to have the guy sit.


notice: because of changes in the guy, lady's torso/arm is no longer quite right. I'll fix that *after* I have him down, since he's being way more problematic. Ditto for his left arm. I did work on her foot/leg and move the arm she's leaning on backwards (after E and I both tried it as it was and pronounced it awkward).

Also, the unfortunate tighty-whitey look is just an artifact of me trying to figure out exact hip angles.



Preferences? Which one looks more natural, comfortable, cute... ?


Working this out with Erik last night was a wonderfull lesson in how Different Bodies are Different.

I know, I know, you'd think I'd have figured that out already -- after all, it didn't take me that long to figure out that most people have legs of roughly the same length and ten toes -- but it's worth a reminder, especially when it comes to odd things we don't normally notice, like hip rotation. If E sits with his legs out in front of him, his toes want to turn out. Mine are happy pointing up (I tried to ask about this with regard to knees, but he was exhausted and not really understanding and started to seriously over-splain something about guys and scrotal pressure, which was, er, not what I was asking about at all).

Comments

[opalgirl28.livejournal.com]

I'm partial to the middle sketch--it looks a bit more reasonable of a position for Joker.

Yeah, her torso does look just a bit... off, but the hand draped over his shoulder looks better somehow. The hand that she's supporting herself on? Definitely awkward. Even though I'm not an artist, I'm a bit of a people-watcher, and anyone I've ever seen sit like that always slides the supporting arm back.

[shadesofmauve]

I moved her hand back, but I don't think I got it back far enough. Now that I think he's working better, I'll attack work on her again.

I think I'm going to go with the last one, but make the sprawled leg more sprawled. Last night we paid a lot of attention to how easy it was to do, and it's actually easier to have one leg bent unless you're really leaning on someone (core-strength thing). The bent leg is taking far less weight than it would walking, and unlike the version you so correctly called-out as uncomfortable/dangerous last time, it's not sideways weight (that is, it's the way the bone is supposed to support weight).

Btw, even when I don't incorporate advice/crit, I do think about it and remember it -- so thanks again for taking the time to respond!

[opalgirl28.livejournal.com]

You know what--I was torn between the last two; they both look great.

[evilsherbear.livejournal.com]

I like the middle one. I just get the feeling that Joker would spread out as much as possible when he relaxes.

[shadesofmauve]

Hmm... I'm leaning towards the last one, but I have a version where the sprawled leg is MORE sprawled, which may make it a happy medium.

Thanks for responding!

[shadesofmauve]

Also, that may be the best art-critique icon I've ever seen.

[evilsherbear.livejournal.com]

Totally unintentional for this post, but it is!

[opalgirl28.livejournal.com]

*snicker*

Hipster!Fenris, oh god.

[shadesofmauve]

It works on him, it really does.

[rhiannon87.livejournal.com]

Middle one or last one for his pose.

[shadesofmauve]

Thanks for responding!

I've got a version of the last one with a more stretched out leg that might just be the right happy medium 'twixt the two.

[solarbird]

For Joker? The middle one. The bottom one is okay, but the middle one strikes me as the only one really splayed enough, you know?

(Note: my Joker is the animated WB Joker. Other Joker interpretations will vary. They're wrong. XD )

[shadesofmauve]

Hehe! I'd agree with you if it was this Joker, but he's a rather less well known Joker, whom I happen to be rather fond of. There aren't that many strong, snarky, disabled characters in my video games, y'know? And when I say 'many' I mean 'at all'. Video game fandom for great (social) justice!

...because seriously, as a media it needs all the help it can get.

[stasia]

Oh thank goodness. I was SO confused about why Batman's Joker would sit like that against anyone.

And why Harley hadn't killed that girl by now. *grin*

Stasia

[shadesofmauve]

LOL, no. I'm honestly not that into any of the mainstream comic stuff (dons hipster glasses), I just make sure I know enough about it so I don't lose my geek-cred.

[westrider.livejournal.com]

I think the last one looks the most natural to me. It always seems a bit easier to sit on the ground asymmetrically for some reason, rather than with both legs out and evenly spread.

[shadesofmauve]

My tests agree with you.

I think it's something about hamstrings pulling at the lower-back, perhaps. It takes some serious core strength not to slouch if you sit like that. For it to work, he'd have to be leaning back against her quite a bit.

3 it is! It has to wait until next week for any more work, though -- I'm drawing it during down-time at work using the tablet (which is kinda cool, now I think about it -- I'm looking at it week to week and thinking "damn, I'm slow", but I'm really only working in 15-minute chunks).

[stasia]

The third one is best, compositionally - his outstretched legs balance hers. I want to know what's going on with her right knee/calf, also. And, um, you won't have to shift her right arm if she's about to fall over backwards, dragging him with her.

So, do tell about Scrotal Pressure. I'm sure it was a fascinating discussion.

Stasia

[shadesofmauve]

And, um, you won't have to shift her right arm if she's about to fall over backwards, dragging him with her.

Well, that can be fun, too... :P

It was less a discussion than me trying to convince him to stop explaining, which can be a little hard when he's that tired. There's this kind of Erik-verbal-inertia where he can't say anything at all, and then the ball finally gets rolling and dammit, he's going to get the whole thing out.

So, I was really looking at hip rotation when your legs are spraddled (him versus me), and he thought I was talking about, er, degree-of-spraddlage, and that I needed to know why most dudes prefered a larger spraddle angle (which, y'know, I'd kinda figured...) -- and then it devolved still further into how unlike most men he didn't mind crossing his legs... before I managed to derail the conversation. Or perhaps re-rail.

[stasia]

Okay!

I have LOTS of comment, from Geordie, my guy.

First, he says that the way the guy's sitting in the third image makes him look like he's about to try to get away. Like he's braced on both arms and has cocked his knee so he can shove up onto it and leave. Which I thought was interesting - none of us saw that, but a guy saw it immediately.

And. When I read the thing about scrotal pressure and spraddlage and leg-crossing, he said that there's no man who can cross his legs the way a woman can. Because, you know, her legs are mounted further apart, they get a better approach angle on the knee.

And then I cracked up and started typing to you.

So there you go.

Stasia

[shadesofmauve]

Ah, okay! I've adressed the first point in the new version of three (can't post it 'till Monday; file's at work). Erik actually saw a similar thing, but ONLY when he was looking at the two versions compared, which was interesting. I think drawing in his arm (crossed across the bent knee) will also help with relaxation.

I like the usage of 'approach angle' there. Nice. But did he mention scrotal pressure? *g*

And now I'm really curious (in a totally moving-beyond-the-drawing way). When I sit with my legs splayed my toes point up. When E does it, his toes point out. (note: there is no groin constriction in either stance; scrotal pressure is not relevant!). Which way do your toes go? I'm thinking it may have something to do w/ hip placement and rotation, and I wonder if there's a sex-based tendency (caused by narrower/wider hips), or if it's more of an individual variation.

[westrider.livejournal.com]

I just got down on the floor and tried sitting like that. My feet were definitely more comfortable splayed out, but it felt like it mostly had to do with the position of my knees (they were a little too extended with my toes up) and the shape of the muscles on the back of my calves (The point of greatest curvature is the contact with the floor when my toes are up, and there's a flatter area off to the outside, so they tend to roll out).

[stasia]

Okay. I just sat down and looked at my feetsies and then Geordie saw me and laughed and said, "You're talking to your friend again, aren't you?" and waited until I stood up and sat down himself to look at his own feets.

So.

My toes point outward, just a bit. Less than 45 degrees from vertical, but enough to be tilted. I have big calves (especially for my height - I'm 4'9" with 14" calves.) so that's a large part of it, I think.

Geordie's toes also pointed out, a bit more than mine - maybe almost 45 degrees. He's got more calf definition than I! He shifted around a bit and says that he thinks this is more to do with calf size than anything else.

I'd say this is more individual variation and calf size than anything sex-linked.

*grin*

Stasia

[westrider.livejournal.com]

First, he says that the way the guy's sitting in the third image makes him look like he's about to try to get away. Like he's braced on both arms and has cocked his knee so he can shove up onto it and leave. Which I thought was interesting - none of us saw that, but a guy saw it immediately.

Misleading Default Icon aside, I'm actually a guy, and I don't really see that in there. His center of gravity looks too far back from where his hands are for a good push off

[shadesofmauve]

You and your misleading default icons!

(I'd honestly forgot about your current icon, and just assumed Stasia was making a wild-guess).

As usual, I'm more inclined to chalk it up to "people see things differently" than "men/women see things differently."

Heck. In the first version mom thought the guy might be unconscious, and Dad said, "No, I think he's enjoying himself." :P